Netherlands will abstain under Microsoft veto
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Started by: zoobabzoobab
On: 1187445816|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
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Summary:
Netherlands will abstain on OOXML, since Microsoft seemed to be the only one in the technical committee to do not support a conditional approval (No with comments). The Internet Society Netherlands is also calling for a reform of the ISO process, to be more resistant to such controversial standards, "in order for ISO to maintain relevant".
Netherlands will abstain under Microsoft veto
zoobabzoobab 1187445816|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

More infos on the ISOC.nl press release, copied here:

ISOC.nl regrets absence of Netherlands decision on OOXML

On August 16th 2007 the final meeting of NEN NC 381034 "Behandeling en uitwisseling van tekst", the Netherlands' mirror committee of ISO/JTC 1 SC 34 resulted in an "abstain without comments" which places the Netherlands outside of the remainder of the DIS 29500 process.

Since the start of DIS 29500 the Netherlands committee worked very hard for several months in a constructive and positive manner on taking away the technical and legal concerns that lived among members of the committee. The committee can be commended for its professional and correct disregard of the international turbulence around this specific standard, and working towards a joint result worthy of the ISO process.

The result of this intensive process was that during the last meeting on the subject on August 16th 2007 in Delft - where the vote was to be cast - after a majority rejection of a proposal for an "Approval" a final proposal for a so called conditional approval (i.e.: a no vote that would turn into a yes vote if a number of reasonable and already determined conditions were met at the next stage) almost got unanimous support - from all but the local support branch of Microsoft. This isolated position caused the vote to fail and the Netherlands to automatically vote for an "Abstain".

From the view of the international standardisation process Internet Society Netherlands feels that a submitting organisation of a standard should not actively seek to influence the local decision process in such a way. There were no technical reasons stated and therefore the persistent block of this vote should be considered as tactical and predetermined - best characterised by the fact that Microsoft staff had already told journalists some hours before the meeting that the Netherlands were going to abstain. A prewritten press release by Microsoft sent out immediately after the meeting mentions also an "Abstain", but was not updated to the surprising factual outcome of the meeting - which was that the technical comments and problems that were unilaterally agreed upon by the committee will not be submitted to ISO.

This surprising result was the outcome of a lenghty discussion on whether or not it was fair to those members that had submitted several more controversial comments earlier that - without consensus on the compromise that had been worked on for months - these comments would not be included. This included some fundamental comments such as the mandatory use of ISO date codes, exclusive usage of the Gregorian calender (according to ISO 681), problems with intellectual property rights, etc). In addition some felt that during the process they had agreed on many comments to be ameliorated ('censored') in order to come to that same compromise. Without that compromise they would like to submit the original versions. The committee subsequently failed to get consensus on sending all comments. Therefore it will now not share any of its findings with ISO.

The result of both decisions (no vote, no comments) is that the Netherlands places itself out of the rest of the decision process and will no longer play any role in the further process of ISO/JTC1 DIS 29500. Internet Society Netherlands shares the view of many standards veterans around the world that Microsoft Open XML DIS 29500 was not mature for the ISO process yet. Work within the Netherlands committee was very focussed on contributing to technically improving Office Open XML to make it just that. Internet Society Netherlands as the longest sitting member on the Netherlands standardisation committee NEN NC 381034 "Behandeling en uitwisseling van tekst", regrets this outcome as it had invested a large amount of time and effort into the DIS 29500 process. The Netherlands produced some unique and techically relevant comments and technical solutions that would help the future of OOXML as a potential international standard but now they will not be used as such.

ISOC.nl recommends that the ISO procedures - and more specific the Fast Track procedure - be adapted significantly to better deal with controversial standards like DIS 29500/Office Open XML in order for ISO to maintain relevant. This includes demanding two interoperable and independent full implementations prior to accepting a submission for a Fast Track procedure.

The Hague, August 17th 2007
Michiel Leenaars, committee member

In a number of countries like the USA, Italy, Switzerland and Portugal much heated controversy arose around committeedressing and outside manipulation of votes within the process. There was also controversy around a money prize announced by a private foundation for the person or organisation to find the best arguments for national bodies to influence the standards process. The Netherlands committee distanced itself univocally from such activities and took proper precautions to block any such behaviour during this procedure.

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Unfold Netherlands will abstain under Microsoft veto by zoobabzoobab, 1187445816|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Netherlands will abstain under Microsoft veto
podmoklepodmokle 1187449966|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

"There was also controversy around a money prize announced by a private foundation for the person or organisation to find the best arguments for national bodies to influence the standards process. The Netherlands committee distanced itself univocally from such activities and took proper precautions to block any such behaviour during this procedure."

The very purpose of a standard review is to file comments and objections. I can't see why Mr. Leenaars puts grassroot activities on the same level as outright manipulation of the process. After all DIS 26500 is all about a non-standard sent for ISO review. I quote: "The team that makes the best effort to helping the International Standardization Organisation (ISO) fight off Microsoft's lobbying stands to win an FFII "Kayak Award""

The fact that a American company was able to participate in a Dutch standard group and pushed for its own proprietary format demonstrates the problem. A problem for ISO. A worldwide company has the financial resources to manipulate a worldwide process.

What to do when a vendor pushes through his broken format using the fast-track route? The answer is simple, public participation in the standard process needs to be encouraged so that objections are made. "Ignore the bugs" is not acceptable strategy.

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Unfold Re: Netherlands will abstain under Microsoft veto by podmoklepodmokle, 1187449966|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Netherlands will abstain under Microsoft veto
Anonymous (62.58.36.x) 1187711261|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

IBM and Sun both joining the committe to block approval is ok but MS who actually developed a lot of the format you object against.
Of course…

Re: Netherlands will abstain under Microsoft veto
Anonymous (90.225.10.x) 1187718483|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

One problem with Microsofts "veto" is that they did not state any technical reason why they should allow an unconditional "yes" vote, while Sun and IBM (and numerous others) have pointed out hundreds of perceived problems with the standard and rightfully asked for a conditional approval ("no with comments"). If you look at the actual votes, you will find that Sun and IBM are by far not the only ones who opposed a "yes" vote, while Microsoft was indeed alone in opposing a "no with comments" vote.

If you do not see a difference between the roles and actions of Microsoft and Sun/IBM here, please think again. This is a standard which originated from Microsoft, and they alone think it is appropriate to approve it unconditionally. Only Microsoft does not see a single problem with this standard. Doesn't this strike even you as slightly odd? I can understand why you distrust Sun and IBM for their stake in the ODF format, but what reason do governmental bodies, national libraries and universities have to hold a grudge against Microsoft? None, as I see it, or certainly not every single one of the "no" voters. Heck, in the Netherlands some of them were even Microsoft's partners! The "no" voters are opposed to the standard in its current form, not to Microsoft. That makes a huge difference, and I ask you to try to understand this.

In a situation where everyone around you thinks you are wrong, it just might be wise to reconsider. Microsoft does not.

Re: Netherlands will abstain under Microsoft veto
Anonymous (90.225.10.x) 1187718623|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

MS who actually developed a lot of the format

What parts did they not develop? It is a 100% Microsoft product.

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Re: Netherlands will abstain under Microsoft veto
stegustegu 1187466303|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Can we get the numbers and member details of the vote posted? Was the interest of Microsoft represented by an unproportional amount of recently joining partners, or did the committee allow an unreasonably large influence from a small but vocal minority of voters?

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Unfold Re: Netherlands will abstain under Microsoft veto by stegustegu, 1187466303|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Netherlands will abstain under Microsoft veto
stegustegu 1187602375|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Clarified to me by Michiel Leenaars: The vote on "no with comments" required consensus (yet another vulnerability in the system). Microsoft's partners agreed (they felt the comments were fair), while Microsoft alone blocked the vote.

This stinks on so many levels that I am beginning to lose faith in the system. I think it's sick that a stakeholder with such a strong and obvious conflict of interests should be allowed to vote, let alone have this much influence over the process. The premature press release speaks of utmost arrogance from Microsoft, and their conduct deserves contempt. They don't even pretend to be playing fair any longer, and they are certainly not interested in the actual purpose of the committee: to ensure high quality standards within ISO.

Unfold Re: Netherlands will abstain under Microsoft veto by stegustegu, 1187602375|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Netherlands will abstain under Microsoft veto
Anonymous (62.140.137.x) 1187614312|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Where can I find that MS press release?

Re: Netherlands will abstain under Microsoft veto
stegustegu 1187626123|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

My wording was sloppy there, sorry. Reading the story above carefully, it was not a written press release being sent out prematurely, just MS people telling journalists that Netherlands was going to abstain before the actual vote had been made. That is a clear sign of arrogance from those particular individuals, but not from the company as such. The written release was sent out immediately after the meeting. It was obviously pre-written, but that is only natural.

The system is wide open to exploitation, so I guess it kind of deserves this. Let's hope, though, that ISO sees the problem and looks beyond the actual votes, and tries to assess how the decisions were really reached in the national committees. The dirty and turbulent process behind all these "abstain" votes speaks volumes about why OOXML is not yet ready for standardization.

Unfold Re: Netherlands will abstain under Microsoft veto by stegustegu, 1187626123|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Netherlands will abstain under Microsoft veto
podmoklepodmokle 1187710736|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

The process is vulnerable. It is all about "real bugs" that were found.

How can it be that the applicant(main beneficiary) participates in the review process? Or that in Switzerland an ECMA official participates as chair and declares to ignore all objections.

Imagine we want to get OOXML as an ISO standard. Then why the "ignore the bugs" fight? Shouldn't it be in the interest of Microsoft to solve bugs, to clarify patent conditions, and to present a true and fair view? It is all about corporate autism.

Sure, <no>OOXML campaigning is partisan, but it is not populistic. It is about a real community effort targeted to raise awareness about what is going on. Microsoft says it's all IBM and open source. That is not true. Technical standard review is no matter of loyalty. More 1+1=2.

Of course the secondary question is a political one: Is Open XML a standard that we want and need?

Unfold Re: Netherlands will abstain under Microsoft veto by podmoklepodmokle, 1187710736|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Netherlands will abstain under Microsoft veto
Anonymous (62.58.36.x) 1187711072|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

From a Dutch committee member:

http://blogs.infosupport.com/wouterv/archive/2007/08/18/How-I-voted-for-the-Open-XML-ISO-.aspx

From Microsoft member:
http://vacant.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!2526F2136E321C7E!283.entry

Re: Netherlands will abstain under Microsoft veto
Anonymous (84.246.2.x) 1187722069|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

InfoSupport is pretty much a Microsoft company, I wouldn't just all him a 'Dutch committee member', it's much more a 'Microsoft member'.

Re: Netherlands will abstain under Microsoft veto
Anonymous (62.58.36.x) 1187772213|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Infosupport is actualy also an IBM partnercompany like many of the companies tghat have voted for OOXML. You could actually say that virtually all companies that are both MS and IBM partners has been approving OOXML.

It seems a lot more logical for companies that have an interest in using this new standard to be active in a committee than a competitor like Sun that has a competition interest in not standardizing this format or an organisation like FFII which seems only interested in blocking everything to do with 'evil' Microsoft.
It seems that all companies that are genuinely interested in using /implementing the standards think that it's the issues brought up can be overcome leaving only the organisations with interest that lie outside the format standardization itself to vote NO.
(it is also notworthy that IBM that claims the standard is impossible to implement already has Office Open XML implementaties ready but, when this was discovered, removed any information on that implementations from their website)

This painfull affair actually forms a big threat to ISO standardization proceses in future. It seems for instance Ecma has withheld its new versatile holographic disc format standard from ISO fasttrack standardization so far which means that important new technologies are slowed down in their uptake/adoption because there is uncertainty about the ISO standardization proces being influenced for competition and political reasons.

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