Rick's reputation bailout
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started by: podmoklepodmokle
on: 1188314904|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
number of posts: 12
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Australian Standard expert Rick Jelliffe leaves the party line and recommends "No with comments". He also lays his business affiliations open. Rick was one of the most notorious defenders of Microsoft in Australia and developed a new doctrine of National Relevance.
Rick's reputation bailout
podmoklepodmokle 1188314904|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Australian XML expert Rick Jelliffe leaves the party line and recommends "No with comments". He also lays his business affiliations open. Rick Jellifewas one of the most notorious defenders of Microsoft's OOXML in Australia and developed a new standards doctrine of National Relevance as a replacement for ISO's Global Relevance policy.

Vote “No”? But aren’t I supposed to be Microsoft’s biggest fanboy? Well, what I mean is a conditional approval, not a rejection. There are some things that can be fixed and should be fixed, and an ISO Ballot Resolution Meeting is the best forum to make sure it happens.

Rick again defends his National Relevance doctrine:

In my comments I have attempted to … limit them to comments relevant to Australian industry. I definitely concentrate on getting the high-level issues right: the name of the standard, the organization of it, the conformance section, the over-abundance of non-normative text, the need to allow standard notations, and a future-proofing issue. My view is that getting these high-level issues right takes the sting out of the tail of many individual problems and edge-cases, and addresses many of the technical issues that people have raised piecemeal,.

…and explains his business relations:

One unexpected bonus was that MS give me three weeks work (plus some preparation), traveling around teaching seminars on Open XML and talking to standards people. …. But the stench of the four-paned beast is hard to wash off: I was in New Zealand on completely unrelated business and I was invited to speak at an Open Source meeting, but some of the attendees seemed to think I was there in MS’ employ.

In January Rick openly talked about an offer from Microsoft's Doug Mahugh to improve the Wikipedia article of Open XML that stirred much controversy in the Wikipedia community.

unfold Rick's reputation bailout by podmoklepodmokle, 1188314904|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Rick's reputation bailout
Anonymous (211.30.34.x) 1188353261|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

The requirement to consider the national interest is not a Rick Jelliffe invention. Standards Australia is required to take into account the national interest in making its recommendations. Mr Jelliffe was simply addressing a known criterion.

Brendan

unfold Re: Rick's reputation bailout by Anonymous (211.30.34.x), 1188353261|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Rick's reputation bailout
Anonymous (86.84.111.x) 1188370497|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Rick has always favouredthe No with comments as he think it help the resolution proces.
However such a vote works only if you
A) send in comments that can be addressen in the BRM phase
B) create criteria
So if Ecma in the BRM fixes most of your issues and gives out an indication for fixes other issues within the next year or so can the natinal body than change it's vote ?!!!

unfold Re: Rick's reputation bailout by Anonymous (86.84.111.x), 1188370497|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Rick's reputation bailout
Anonymous (58.174.25.x) 1188394726|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Very true, however just because an objection has been raised elsewhere doesn't necessary mean it is not in the "national interest" to raise it here in Oz, which seems to be what he was arguing, from the reports I've heard of the meeting he chaired on this. On the contrary, serious technical flaws in the standard would be very important issues in the Australia's interest. Especially if those flows precluded software companies in Australia from readily implementing the standard. He seemed to be arguing the line that they could only consider objections / issues that were uniquely Australian. Which, of course, made it nearly impossible to raise objections, as pretty much all the ones I've heard of are applicable everywhere.

unfold Re: Rick's reputation bailout by Anonymous (58.174.25.x), 1188394726|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Rick's reputation bailout
Anonymous (121.210.129.x) 1188501978|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I didn't chair any meeting. It was Standards Australia who made it clear that they wanted original and locally-relevant issues.

Rick Jelliffe

unfold Re: Rick's reputation bailout by Anonymous (121.210.129.x), 1188501978|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Rick's reputation bailout
Anonymous (86.84.111.x) 1188370719|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Funny how the spec seem a lot less bigger if you weed out what Rick call the fluff.
It looks like it might then shrink to a mere 2000 pages which is probably not much more than ODF with included formula's and reused w3c formats.

unfold Re: Rick's reputation bailout by Anonymous (86.84.111.x), 1188370719|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Rick's reputation bailout
Anonymous (10.32.41.x) 1188448619|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Hello podmokle here is mailing list post on Rick in New Zealand

http://lists.nzoss.org.nz/archives/openchat/ezmlm-cgi?mss:8570 [user: nzoss, password: nzoss]

unfold Re: Rick's reputation bailout by Anonymous (10.32.41.x), 1188448619|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Rick's reputation bailout
spauldingsmailsspauldingsmails 1188450831|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I'm a little confused. Rick states in his O'Reilly article "My recommendation on Office Open XML: "No with Comments"!" dated 28th August 2007, that

I have no idea how Standards Australia will vote, but I strongly urge them to vote “No with Comments”, specifically with my comments.

and in one of his replies to a comment;

On my travels, when I have been asked about how National Bodies should vote, I have always said that there is nothing wrong with a “No with Comments” vote, if the comments were doable. Indeed, this is exactly the vote that I have recommended to my national body, Standards Australia.

However, according to Lee Welburn's notes from the DIS29500/OOXML forum (see. http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070809103920651), which was held only 3 weeks prior;

Rick later said that OOXML would become the "de-facto standard" anyhow, with or without ISO approval, and that ISO was threatened with irrelevance if it did not approve it.

Has Lee Welburn maybe misinterpreted Rick's statements at the DIS29500/OOXML forum or is there a clear change in Rick's stand on the proposed OOXML standard?

unfold Re: Rick's reputation bailout by spauldingsmailsspauldingsmails, 1188450831|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Rick's reputation bailout
Anonymous (121.210.129.x) 1188453496|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

You are mostly making the same mistake. That being in favour of a technology being standardized means a "Yes" vote on the draft. And that any kind of "No" vote on the draft means that you are not in favour of the technology being standardized. Puleeeease get even the most basic knowledge of ISO voting before writing this kind of rubbish.

I am in favour of Open XML having a ISO standard. However, there are things in the draft DIS 29500 that I think should be addressed in order to make it a standard. It is very common for nations to vote no with comments about the drafts of standards they support. Jon Bosak made this really clear in his posting that "No with comments" is better though of as "Conditional approval".

On whether a national body should have a limited view of national interest: I think you need to understand that in committee work, where there is vote, it is necessary for one national body to support another national body's interests (e.g. Australia supporting Japan) in the spirit of fraternity, good faith and so that they feel inclined to support your requirements; however, for gathering issues to be dealt with at a BRM, repetition serves no purpose at all since all the issues are table, all repetition does is increase the workload of the poor shmucks at Ecma and ISO and SC34 who have to administer the proceedings. Fifty countries putting in the same canned one hundred objections results in 4900 crossed out lines with "we already have that" followed by 4900 responses "See the comment to national body X". Brazil's interest in obscure bugs in Japanese typesetting is interesting, but Japan is perfectly capable of raising that objection themselves, for example.

Talk of me trying to bail out my reputation, or switching sides or whatever is just pathetic, by the way. Why not draw the line at personal attacks?

Rick Jelliffe

unfold Re: Rick's reputation bailout by Anonymous (121.210.129.x), 1188453496|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Rick's reputation bailout
Anonymous (121.45.35.x) 1188486913|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Rick mb read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Brazilians

unfold Re: Rick's reputation bailout by Anonymous (121.45.35.x), 1188486913|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Rick's reputation bailout
podmoklepodmokle 1188489005|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

In fact we always insisted that the way to get comments considered is a "disapproval with comments". Preach that to your MS friends.

You are an Open XML celebrity. I think you were treated very fair and balanced. It is certainly great news that you come up with these points the day after the Australian vote. You were a firestarter and a comments hitman. You also knew that Rob brought many of these problems to the attention of ECMA prior to fast-track process. They ignored all issues and pushed forward.

It took some time for myself to get converted. The question is if saul becomes paul.

unfold Re: Rick's reputation bailout by podmoklepodmokle, 1188489005|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Rick's reputation bailout
Anonymous (121.210.129.x) 1188501637|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Well, you should pray that you never get treated with such fairness and balance.

I submitted my comments before the deadline to Standards Australia, by the way. I put out the earlier version of it (the 10 suggestions) weeks before that.

Rick Jelliffe

P.s. I am certainly aware of Nisei Brazilians. I used to know one; couldn't speak a word of Japanese, he claimed.

unfold Re: Rick's reputation bailout by Anonymous (121.210.129.x), 1188501637|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
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